Discussing Affirmative Action
82Tools Used to Enslave Embittered Minds
In Interesting Way to Finish Out 2009
My Hummingbird brought this video link to me this morning, for which I am very appreciative.
I have my own history with Affirmative Action.
The first time I went to take my driving written test I did not pass. A person can miss up to 6 questions on the exam only, and I missed 7. I was upset, but I understood that I needed to do better.
Right when I was learning that I failed, the same Department of Motor Vehicles agent spoke in Spanish to another man who had just walked up to the desk while I was still there (not waiting in line at all). He had missed 10 on his test, which was entirely in Spanish, but he was given a "pass" anyways.
I was quite upset, but was focused on getting my driver's license. I quickly went to another DMV office on the other end of town and passed my test a couple hours later, and my excitement over driving pushed my anger over the unequal system deep down...
A few years later I decided that I wanted to pursue a career in law enforcement with L.A.'s "best and brightest." I performed exceptionally on my written, physical, psychological, and background examinations, and received a 95 out of 99 on my interview process, which was extremely good, and above the average.
Yet I was ultimately turned down for the Academy.
I was told in a meeting that because I am considered a "White-non Hispanic male" that I would have to get nearly a perfect interview score or get extra points through military service to be able to gain acceptance....
ooooo! I was angry at that Affirmative Action...letting women and minorities with lesser skills and scores in ahead of me!
I joined the Marines very quickly thereafter in order to get my extra points...
In the process I learned to not want a career in policing....but that is another story altogether..
The discussion attached through video on this article provides a perspective into the highly controversial issue of Affirmative Action identity and public policy in the United States, and opens lines of deep analysis of how 1960's era (and post) Civil Rights reforms can be perceived by different cross-sections of America's collective societies.
I do believe that much of the entitled "Affirmative Action" structure, the actual application of some of its idealistic pursuits, is implemented in a way to cause anger in "White men"-whether they choose to apply this label to themselves or not...and then one can put "Camp of the Saints" in their hands, or the "Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion", and march them off to war....
While I have seen rules broken, I had for a long time failed to see how rules established by Anglo-American society were inherenlty based on the destruction of rules, and were constructed more to restrict others from achieving anything for themselves...
This video sparked a discussion in my home between myself, my younger brother, and my father, much to the detriment of my mother's endeavors to find peace on the last day of 2009.
But, regardless of that result, collective knowledge was gained, and opportunites were had for each of us to demonstrate who we really were, and how we truly perceived people around us...
I was very troubled by some of the things that were said by others, however... "Identifying with the Aggressor" syndrome runs in my own family...
All in all, it is very important, in my mind, to ongoingly keep conversations about important topics alive, whether positive at times or negative. The worste thing that could be done would be to allow these issues to drop from our collective consciousness....to then become something that is neglected, and ignored/forgotten in time...
This segment is only part of the opening arguments to the overall debate. I hope this is all as meaningful to others as it is to myself.
Peace to all, and may 2010 bring us increased shared prosperity and perspective...
If We Could Only Be More Bonobo-Like
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What about the incentives for employers to hire people who are non white,hyspanic,or any other ethnic backround other than white.
Then there is a incentive to hire economically destitute individuals who are on welfare,and so on? Incentives like this make someone who is not that bad off economically feel like they should spend everything they have in order to be able to compete with all the others out there for a job.It's very discouraging when being poor gets you in the door.
If,it helps at all!
I certainly can see the need to help all people,but keeping some people poor is not help,it's making it more difficult to sympathize with others when your the one being discriminated against,for any reason.Why not help all people equally as it should be.By the way Mike,I like the avitar of George Bush with his hearing aid.
Mr. Deeds, does the movement of one person, or a relative handful signify overall change?
I have additional responses to your line of thinking, but I want to hold them back until the hub I'm currently working on is finished because those issues will be raised there.
Someone, thanks for your comments.
I agree that we all should be treated equally. Privilege that has generationally been ingrained into the "white" subconcious over the past 400 years is hard to overcome....
My next hub will deal with this in more detail..
Thank you both for the feedback, and I hope 2010 is already greeting you warmly..
Hi Mike - great hub and important topic. It's good to have a conversation about race, rather than a screaming match. Keep it up!
And Tim Wise is awesome.
"Mr. Deeds, does the movement of one person, or a relative handful signify overall change? "
I'm not sure I understand your question??? Of course the hiring or university acceptance of one person or a handful doesn't signify overall change.
I just listened to Tim Wise. He's quite impressive. In my comment I didn't mean to imply that discrimination has disappeared or that affirmative action is no longer needed.
Wise reminded me of some of the issues brought up in discussions of the recent Supreme Court decisions involving the University of Michigan admissions policies. Those who objected to the university's policies didn't raise any objections the admission of under-qualified whites whose parents or grandparents are graduates of the university or those whose parents are on the appropriations committee in the state legislature or against promising athletes who can barely write their names (that's a bit of an exaggeration) and who are steered into easy courses designed especially for them. Pete Waldmeier, a Detroit News columnist grad of U of M and white resident of Grosse Pointe who had fumed in his columns about affirmative action at his alma mater, mused in another column over who he was going to bequeath his 50 yard line season tickets to when he was no longer able to use them. I engaged him in several back and forth emails but wasn't able to get him to budge even an inch in his anti-affirmative action rants.
Good hub.
Sorry, but I stopped watching the Tim Wise video as soon as he started making affirmative action into a leg race, thereby actually illustrating the need to end affirmative action (though I doubt he would admit that.)
That's not what he was saying...perhaps you should finish the video...
I call your comment more of a denial of truth...and that kind of thinking enables the perpetuation of unearned and unsanctioned false-pride...
This is something that need not exist....
Please visitors, take the time to listen, and do yourself the due justice to listen objectively...
You're only cheating yourselves otherwise...
I thought that discrimimation was Illegal...
Well, it may be illegal, but there's plenty of it around. I heard on NPR just today about a study which showed that blacks who included something on their resume that indicated their probable race (e.g., a black-sounding name, or previous employment or activity that provided a clue that the individual was black) were 50 percent less likely to be contacted by employers. And when they appeared at the hiring office of an employer who advertised that they were hiring they were told that the employer was no longer hiring but whites who appeared after the blacks were turned away were hired or interviewed and not told the employer was no longer hiring. This is a partial explanation why the unemployment rate is more than double that of whites.
Good rebuttal Mr. Deeds.... The issue is, if there is a legacy of discrimination that is embedded/institutionalized by the dominant society, a law will not change it.... There is still too much to benefit from, and the world is getting more and more competitive all the time....
Wow, great hub topic. Interesting you tube clip and watch this Tim Wise, who comes across like an anti-white racist, working against the best interest of our country. I believe that affirmative action “had” a real need that has been primarily fulfilled and now it is causing more harm than good.
Guys, the best facts are the ones you experience firsthand and feel the direct effects - not the spin doctored study's the self race deprecating Tim Wise mentioned in this speech. For those of you that can handle some real truth, here it is one item:
FACT 1: a major oil company in Houston Texas has an active diversity & inclusion (D&I) program. In theory all “types” can participate, but in reality less than 5% of those involved are straight, white males. 4 years ago an off- campus event was held in Dallas. Attending also required supervisor approval…
(A) time off with pay was included – benefitting homosexual, female or minority race participants …
(B) a draft of the entertainment program was being worked and a black friend of mine who was also an associate member of the D&I committee. He received an email listing the planned entertainment program. I personally saw this on his computer and we briefly discussed it.
One “skit” in question was named “ How to deal with an evil white male manager”. My friend would not share a copy of the email for fear of getting in trouble.
Complaining or sharing such information with human resources or the press would result in loss of job and virtually no chance of working with major oil company in town again.. Whistleblowers have rough time in oil& gas. While this issue did not directly affect me, I am not blind to the outrage of the situation…
(C) Strong preference in hiring females, Indian & Asian engineers and black with extra bonus for homosexuals was commonplace at this large, international firm. In fact a secretary on site intentionally mentioned that she was homosexual in order to help secure a raise. She was successful. Many of the white guys American and European would carefully joke about pretending to be homo sexual in order to get ahead – at least at mid level roles. A key high level director role was filled by a women in my area. It seemed great until we all learned over time that she was completely unqualified and huge problems developed. She was not replaced or demoted – apparently for fear of the move being seen as sexist. Years later she finally quit and soon after the department metrics improved greatly.
This sort of thing went on for years and I honestly was embarrassed and eventually left the firm based heavily on this experience. (Note the firm did have high level management diversity in operations and other areas- which worked out well because the people were qualified and hard working and just happened to be a “minority”…)
[Tim Wise] "who comes across like an anti-white racist"
This is an interesting phrasing put forward here, and it is important to analyze its structure and connotation...
I've listened to Mr. Wise' comments repeatedly, and I have also compared his statements to American political and cultural evolution (past, present, and projecting into the future)...
With this said, I have not found anything he has said to be inaccurate...in fact I see the truth....
How is accepting what has actually transpired over time "anti-white" or "racist towards whites"?
If I tell the truth about the full extent of profit in this nation based solely off one's being a "white" male (Christian of course!) as opposed to being anything else, that is racist???
When police officers across this nation routinely, without a thought, target "non-whites" for pull-overs, questioning, and searches and the officers are not "white" this is not a symbol of racism dying, but actual a demonstration of how an institution utilizing racism can transcend the ethnic, social, and economic backgrounds of the officers themselves...
I was at my hummingbird's home (they are Mexican-American) for her younger sister's birthday party... At around 8:30pm the LAPD roll around and proceed to write her father a ticket for violating the peace....being that a d.j. was playing music in the back yard...
The older officer was "black" (meaning he had visibly dark skin, but who's ancestry I could not determine) and the younger was of Mexican or Central American descent.
Even though it was still light outside, the officers told us that they had to write us a ticket...they really had no choice... The homeowner speaks mostly Spanish, and the "Latino" officer was the only one between them who could as well... The connotation of this is that the homeowner had, prior to the party, called over to the LAPD station and followed the correct protocols to hold his party, and to play music in an outdoor setting... The officers paid no attention to the claims made, and only threatened the homeowner with arrest if he did not comply with their terms...
I ensured to put pressure on them by demanding their badge numbers and names, but ,luckily, one of the party's guests had a husband who is also with the LAPD. She quickly hopped on the phone and we were told to call the supervisor on duty...
This man arrived about 30 minutes later. He was "white" (meaning North-Western European stock...not Armenian, not Greek or Russian, Italian or Spanish), and he spoke to us very professionally and respectfully...unlike his two counterparts...
This story could have ended two ways.... On one hand, had we not demanded that the supervisor come out, the ticket would have been issued, and the homeowner, the father of the birthday girl, would have been at the mercy of the court..
But, this is not how it ended...being empowered, we made demands over the officers' threats to arrest us.... The supervisor still had the ticket issued..but he 1) listened to our entire story...though he spoke no Spanish himself, he listened to the daughters of the homeowner, and 2) he also wrote us a carefully written note stating that he saw us as "good folks" who "followed the rules" and "did everything right" and therefore should "not be penalized" for our actions..
Now, the difference in treatment between the officers on the street and their supervisor was amazing...and illustrates clearly how institutionalized racism can actually empower members of communities that are normally discriminated against.....
I can go more into detail on this occurrance, for more insight comes out of it than the little shown here...
And we walked away free..
Interesting...
What is "white"?
Now, if I want to point to a similar example to yours Jman, I remember back when I was in the Marines...now, we had a don't ask don't tell policy then, as they do today.... A display of homosexuality...meaning if one is caught in the act of homo-intercourse, or proof of such activity, one will be punished and removed....
Yet, I noticed how Marines around me who were homosexual would receive special treatment... For example, if two Marines get married, they get to move off base and they each get an increase in pay to offset their living expenses (nice!). I had friends who were homosexual who would get married to straight men and women simply for the money and the freedom.... At the same time I knew a guy who recorded everyone he had any sexual contact with...and he could ruin many careers... He became an untouchable Marine...he could really do a lot without ever getting any trouble...
But, if they were allowed to be openly homosexual, to get "affirmative action" per se, these power holds would stop...no more leverage...
The power in this nation, and around the world, continues to be held in the hands of men who are, at least openly, straight, and who are overwhelmingly of Western European stock... A specific pattern of state and church-sponsored discrimination against Americans of non-European (at least not directly noticable...that is) lineage....and if one continues onward to the next hub I have on this topic I think more of this will be addressed....
The Detroit Area Study will also provide a wealth of insight.... "Racism Without Racists"....-the idea of 'colorblind racism.'
Check 'em out.
The real question is how could you be so stupid as to fail the written exam for a driver's license?
Never mind, I just saw some of your other hubs. I can see how you are that stupid.
In the video, Tim Wise comes across as a salesman and politician. He looks like a left wing version of Rush L with focus is on self race hate via supporting affirmative action policy.
Guys, if it made sense considering risk, money and politics guys like Tim would flip flop their roles or position in any “debates” with no problem. However, once they are “established” they can NOT change regardless of facts and real impact on community & country. If they change positions they lose credibility and then their money…Therefore their messages are biased and twisted intentionally.
If Tim W “believes” his rhetoric, then why is he so wealthy?
Does Tim give most of his personal money back to the poor blacks he speaks about? Does he do fundraisers within the growing community of self hate whites with all proceeds going to NAACP or black only scholarships funds? What about the American Indians? (Why not support their cause Tim? … oops I forgot , no money in that right now…)
Any way, there were a number of factual misrepresentations by Time Wise:
- Government home loans- helping whites only? Wrong. Look at New Orleans in late 2009 give away over $65k in “forgivable” home mortgages from Fed grant. I just happened to speak with a black lady bank loan officer on plane flight. She personally was working with this popular program. Over half of approved applicants were low income blacks. Many of the home buyer’s defaulted within a year of purchase. She indicated that most of those foreclosures were due to the buyer not even being able to afford the utilities and taxes. The bank was forced to follow government policy on approving mortgage requests to keep from “discriminating”. The program was modified but ended soon. http://www.nola.com/news/index.ssf/2009/07/new_orl
- Top high schools – for whites only to help get into better colleges over blacks? Are YOU kidding me! (Big time lie). We are currently fighting to protect the exemplary rating of the public high &grade school where we live right now. We spoke with the retiring school district board president. “Busing” has been used for over 30 years to help all school districts access the federal title 1 funding. School districts can get over $900,000/ yr/school in supplement government money iff the school has ~ 50% low income , minority students. Yes, that includes all the rich white subdivision schools. Result ? Huge increase in crime and drugs in the redistricted/ busing enabled schools along with a crash in school quality, grades and overall ranking which leads to crash in home values nearby, which over time does allow lower income people to move in ( so their kids no longer will have to be bused). I know dozens of families – yes well educated black and Asian families as well – that have moved more than multiple times just to “find a decent school for their kids” since the government’s busing destroyed the value of the previous one.
- Networking – for Tim to say that knowing the right people is a whites only thing is so stupid and racist I’m not sure any counter point is needed. How do you think the NAACP interfaces with business and politicians? How did Opra Winfrey, Tiger Woods, and a self made MBA holding black friend of mine Kyle get ahead. Kyle has a bigger network than I and most others do and didn’t need or take any racist scholarships (as he calls them) or handouts…Maybe we should use affirmative action for college & pro football and basketball? (oops I forgot that high income industry somehow doesn’t count…course …and you know what, it IS ok because no one in this decade minds those sports players being black or whatever race because WE the real American people are ,in general, not racist and are interested in talent…Just like business should have free hand in drafting the best talent )
Mike Wise and other racist/socialist types playacting as they do is disturbing and very anti-American.
One of the biggest problems America has is old, well intentioned laws , policies and subsides that have no automatic shut down or close out period. These things tend to continue far longer than they should due to poor government management and eventually due more harm than good. Affirmative action is one of those.
I'll be speaking to Mr. Wise in the relative near future, I'll have to pose to him some of your thoughts jman. I will definitely keep you posted.
I don't think Tim is rich - most writers aren't! But I don't know for a fact.
I'm still thinking about your comments here and on my hub, JMan, and I might write another hub about it.
To point to media celebrities, especially sports stars and the like is rather poor Jman....
I look to Mellon, Huntington, Hearst, DuPont....I look to the men who helped perpetuate the invention of "white"....
And unfortunately I see that they have some people,perhaps Jman, so twisted into its false fabric that they can't see the class war that is really taking place....
There is no race.....just those who create it and those who perpetuate it...
The NAACP is hardly an all-mighty force...If I want to compare it to the Heritage Foundation I will see where the true power is....
It is one thing to be flaunted around in the media....often overemphasized....as opposed to writing the policies that Presidents, Legislatures, and Justices put forward and support....
Hello Ronald Reagan....Hello George Bush...both of them...
Heritage and Mellon/Scaife win again!
I wonder what part of Texas you hale from Jman.... It, as an entire state, has a rather nasty history....that is ongoingly rearing its ugly head... I have travelled through your state, spending quality time in El Paso, San Antonio, and Houston, amongst several other locales whose names I cannot recall at this time...
Living in Los Angeles, in the largest county in the nation, the second most densly populated metropolis in this country, and home to the largest prison colony on earth (aside from the state of California as a whole and the United States as a nation being that the entirety of the county is a prison, after all), I am able to see how "race" plays out.
I'm actually going to write an article on this now...
I'll be back...
Guys, I appreciate the feedback and thoughtful approach of your work.
Yes, Texas and other states have a bit of a checkered past. As they say we are all primarily a product of our experiences. This is why these "hub page" blogs can be useful, interesting & sometimes a bit emotional when honest opinion and fact is shared.
As noted on Tim's hub, we may end up disagreeing on various issues but hopefully all concerned will learn something more about others in our country specifically because of the different perspectives. Thanks & look forward to future hubs as time allows...
I hope that greater insight can be found....and I hope that I have not offended you in any way....
What a great debate! This is what I love to see. And all are still friends in the end. I don't really have an opinion yet but I'm sure I will before the night is over. Great hub and comments from you, jman, Wilson and Deeds.
Lisa, I like how you think...
Did you get a chance to watch the whole debate?
Ralph Deeds Level 6 Commenter 2 years ago
Affirmative action clearly has angered white men and women. In my opinion, whether or not it's justified depends on the individual situation and hiring history of the particular employer--public or private. In my experience, affirmative action has in many cases brought about needed changes. When I came to work in General Motors corporate headquarters in 1960 there was not a single minority in a salaried office job and there were no women in other than secretarial jobs other than two librarians who worked under a male head librarian in the library. Polish-American men and women from nearby Hamtramck had a near monopoly on the janitorial jobs. The only minorities were a couple of black non-skilled laborers in the building maintenance department and one or two elevator operators. In the plants, a woman had never been selected for the apprentice training program.
Elsewhere in the city the Detroit police force was pretty much lily white and so was the fire department. The white police force created problems in enforcing the law in the black community--lack of cooperation and claims of police brutality, some of which were justified. In the J.L. Hudson Department Store the only blacks were out of sight in the warehouse. There was not a single black sales clerk.
During this period, I remember clearly hearing GM corporate officers cite the company's "longstanding policy of non-discrimination" in response to complaints from the minority community. After the Civil Rights Act of 1964 required companies doing business with the government to file goals and timetables with the EEOC the situation began to change quite fast. The first woman was accepted into the apprentice training program for a toolmaker job in 1967. And around the same time GM and the other auto companies started recruiting minorities for the skilled trades and for jobs in engineering, accounting and other jobs that had historically been off limits to blacks. The first black vice president was named in the 1980s, and there have been several minorities and women since then.
Now there are minority clerks in nearly every retail store and the Detroit Police Department has thoroughly integrated to the point where the last several chiefs of police have been minorities. And, in my opinion, affirmative action is no longer justified. Hiring and promotion should be strictly on merit.
My experience leads me to the conclusion, as I stated at the outset above, that whether affirmative action is justified depends on the situation at the employer.